En vez de preocuparse por condon o no condon

[HugoreiElRegreso]

[HugoreiElRegreso]

[Eagleheart]

Afortunadamente no espero yo una vida de gozo y placeres. Y simplemente, no dejes que sea la soberbia la que te incite a contestar: la presunción de salvarse, o de no condenarse, es algo grave, hermano Hugo.

No digo que no seas una persona ejemplar en muchos aspectos, no digo que no seas una persona sincera, pero sí te digo que hagas oración con humildad.

Y en el momento de hacer oración y pedir a Dios no pienses cosas como "dime que tengo la razón". Es algo muy negativo, como yo lo veo.

Por último, yo prefiero pensar en Dios como tal: como Creador y Autor de todas las cosas, a quien debemos obediencia y entrega total.

Prefiero hacer eso, por muy difícil que parezca, a pensar a la manera del camino ancho.

Salu2. Paz y Bien.
_________________

No ceder ni un milímetro. Dies irae dies illa Solvet sæclum in favilla Teste David cum Sibylla - Quantus tremor est futurus Quando judex est venturus Cuncta stricte discussurus

[HugoreiElRegreso]

[Eagleheart]

[Eagleheart]

[HugoreiElRegreso]

[Eagleheart]

[HugoreiElRegreso]

[Eagleheart]

[Josè Luis Jimènez Moreno]

[Alfeo]

[Dalmiant]

Hugo, lei varios temas en que vos hablas sobre los condones y que consideras que tenes la conciencia tranquila, te doy un razonamiento que tengo:

- Dijiste que varios sacerdotes te han dicho que en el matrimonio no hay problema. Pero por sobre cualquier sacerdote le debemos obediencia al Santo Padre, el Vicario de Cristo en la Tierra.

- Por lo tanto, una enciclica que tenemos en que el Santo Padre explica muy bien este tema es la Humanae Vitae, de S.S. Pablo VI Podes leerla en la pagina del Vaticano, te recomiendo verdaderamente que la leas.

Click aqui para ir a la Humanae Vitae

- Uno podria plantearse "una enciclica no necesariamente es dogma de fe irreformable". Entonces tenemos este razonamiento:

* Uno puede actuar de dos maneras:

1- Obedezco al Papa y soy fiel al Magisterio aunque tenga dudas.

2- Desobedezco al Papa porque considero que se equivoco en eso.

En este se abre algo, dos opciones de nuevo (que terrible mezcla de cosas que estoy haciendo xD)

1- Si el Papa esta en lo correcto, estoy pecando al usar condones (ese pecado mas el otro de desobediencia al Vicario de Cristo, ademas de dudar hasta cierto punto de que el Espiritu Santo asista al Santo Padre en sus decisiones)

2- Si el Papa se equivoco, estoy pecando al desobedecer. ?Como sabes vos que el Papa se equivoco al condenar los condones? ?Tenes algun otro documento de un Papa o un Concilio (ya que, al menos es mi opinion, la voluntad del Papa o un Concilio esta por sobre la voluntad y el parecer de cualquier sacerdote)?



No se si se entendio.

La conclusion es que, al menos hasta que un Papa o un Concilio declaren que la condena a los condones es errada, yo por precaucion obedeceria al Santo Padre. Si manana sale Benedicto XVI a permitir los condones, pues muy bien, pero no voy a pecar de desobediencia al Magisterio por una supocision mia, ademas arriesgandome a pecar contra el sexto mandamiendo.

Uno de los poderes de San Pedro es el de declarar que es lo que esta bien y que es lo que esta mal. Esta facultad permanece en sus sucesores. Por lo tanto, en este punto seremos juzgados por si hemos permanecido fieles a lo que San Padre y sus sucesores han declarado, mas alla de la suposicion de que se equivocaron que podamos tener.

(Entre parentesis aclaro que yo no dudo de la maldad moral de los condones y cualquier otra " acción que, o en previsión del acto conyugal, o en su realización, o en el
desarrollo de sus consecuencias naturales, se proponga, como fin o como medio, hacer
imposible la procreación (16). " y lo creo y defiendo firmemente)

(por otro lado, hermano Hugo, el mismo Pablo VI respondio a esos sacerdotes con los que te confesaste:

"A los sacerdotes

28. Amados hijos sacerdotes, que sois por vocación los consejeros y los directores espirituales
de las personas y de las familias, a vosotros queremos dirigirnos ahora con toda confianza.
Vuestra primera incumbencia —en especial la de aquellos que enseñan la teología moral— es
exponer sin ambigüedades la doctrina de la Iglesia sobre el matrimonio. Sed los primeros en dar
ejemplo de obsequio leal, interna y externamente, al Magisterio de la Iglesia en el ejercicio de
vuestro ministerio. Tal obsequio, bien lo sabéis, es obligatorio no sólo por las razones aducidas,
sino sobre todo por razón de la luz del Espíritu Santo, de la cual están particularmente asistidos
los pastores de la Iglesia para ilustrar la verdad (39). Conocéis también la suma importancia que
tiene para la paz de las conciencias y para la unidad del pueblo cristiano, que en el campo de la
moral y del dogma se atengan todos al Magisterio de la Iglesia y hablen del mismo modo. Por
esto renovamos con todo nuestro ánimo el angustioso llamamiento del Apóstol Pablo: "Os
ruego, hermanos, por el nombre de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, que todos habléis igualmente, y
no haya entre vosotros cismas, antes seáis concordes en el mismo pensar y en el mismo sentir"
(40).

29. No menoscabar en nada la saludable doctrina de Cristo es una forma de caridad eminente
hacia las almas. Pero esto debe ir acompañado siempre de la paciencia y de la bondad de que el
mismo Señor dio ejemplo en su trato con los hombres. Venido no para juzgar sino para salvar
(41), El fue ciertamente intransigente con el mal, pero misericordioso con las personas.

Que en medio de sus dificultades encuentren siempre los cónyuges en las palabras y en el
corazón del sacerdote el eco de la voz y del amor del Redentor.

Hablad, además, con confianza, amados hijos, seguros de que el Espíritu de Dios que asiste al
Magisterio en el proponer la doctrina, ilumina internamente los corazones de los fieles,
invitándolos a prestar su asentimiento. Enseñad a los esposos el camino necesario de la oración,
preparadlos a que acudan con frecuencia y con fe a los sacramentos de la Eucaristía y de la
Penitencia, sin que se dejen nunca desalentar por su debilidad. " S.S. Pablo VI, Sucesor de San Pedro, Vicario de Cristo, Obispo de Roma, enciclica Humanae Vitae)


Sin mas, me despido.

Bendiciones, Dios los bendiga a todos.

[Josè Luis Jimènez Moreno]

[Titus400]

¿Las acciones individuales no influyen en la sociedad? Yo diría que el conjunto de la sociedad está conformado por la suma de las acciones individuales. El mundo no es una porquería. Nosotros lo hacemos así. Si en lugar de ponernos a pensar ¡cuánto sufrimos! o ¡cuánto placer podemos obtener por día, por semana o por mes!, nos pusiéramos a hacer algo más productivo (por los otros principalmente), seguro que las cosas cambiarían mucho.

[Eagleheart]

[Tony de New York]

Harvard Researcher agrees with Pope on condoms in Africa
Cambridge, Mass., Mar 21, 2009 / 10:11 am (CNA).- Pope Benedict’s recent brief remark against condoms has caused an uproar in the press, but several prominent scientists dedicated to preventing AIDS are defending the Pope, saying he was correct in his analysis. In an interview with CNA, Dr. Edward Green explained that although condoms should work, in theory, they may be “exacerbating the problem” in Africa.

Benedict XVI’s Tuesday comments on condoms were made as part of his explanation of the Church’s two prong approach to fighting AIDS. At one point in his response the Pontiff stressed that AIDS cannot be overcome by advertising slogans and distributing condoms and argued that they “worsen the problem.” The media responded with an avalanche of over 4,000 articles on the subject, calling Benedict a “threat to public health,” and saying that the Catholic Church should “enter the 21st century.”

Senior Harvard Research Scientist for AIDS Prevention, Dr. Edward Green, who is the author of five books, including “Rethinking AIDS Prevention: Learning from Successes in Developing Countries” discussed his support for Pope Benedict XVI’s comments with CNA.

According to Dr. Green, science is finding that the media is actually on the wrong side of the issue. In fact, Green says that not only do condoms not work, but that they may be “exacerbating the problem” in Africa.

“Theoretically, condoms ought to work,” he explained to CNA, “and theoretically, some condom use ought to be better than no condom use, but that’s theoretically.”

Condom proponents often cite the lack of condom education as the main culprit for higher AIDS rates in Africa but Green disagrees.

After spending 25 years promoting condoms for family planning purposes in Africa, he insists that he’s quite familiar with condom promotion. Yet, he claims that “anyone who worked in family planning knew that if you needed to prevent a pregnancy, say the woman will die, you don’t recommend a condom.”

Green recalls that when the AIDS epidemic hit Africa, the “Industry” began using AIDS as a “dual purpose” marketing strategy to get more funding for condom distribution. This, he claims, effectively took “something that was a 2nd or 3rd grade device for avoiding unwanted pregnancies” and turned it into the “best weapon we [had] against AIDS.”

The accepted wisdom in the scientific community, explained Green, is that condoms lower the HIV infection rate, but after numerous studies, researchers have found the opposite to be true. “We just cannot find an association between more condom use and lower HIV reduction rates” in Africa.
Dr. Green found that part of the elusive reason is a phenomenon known as risk compensation or behavioral disinhibition.

“[Risk compensation] is the idea that if somebody is using a certain technology to reduce risk, a phenomenon actually occurs where people are willing to take on greater risk.” The idea can be related to someone that puts on sun block and is willing to stay out in the sun longer because they have added protection. In this case, however, the greater risk is sexual. Because people are willing take on more risk, they may “disproportionally erase” the benefits of condom use, Green said.

Another factor that contributes to ineffective condom use in Africa, is the phenomenon where condoms may be effective on an “individual level,” but not on a “population level.” Green’s research found that “condoms have been effective” in HIV concentrated areas where high risk activities are already being conducted, such as brothels in countries like Thailand.

Claiming to be a liberal himself, Green asserts that promoting Western “liberal ideology” where, “most Africans are conservative when it comes to sexual behavior,” is quite offensive to them. Citing his new book, “Indigenous Theories and Contagious Disease,” Green described Africans as “very religious by global standards” who are offended by “trucks going around where people are dancing to ‘Rock ‘n’ Roll’, tossing out condoms to teenagers and the children of the village.”

Green also noted that there is an ideology called “harm reduction” that is being pushed by many organizations trying to prevent AIDS. The ideology believes that “you can’t change the underlying behavior, that you can’t get people to be faithful, especially Africans,” the HIV specialist explained.


However, in 2004, Uganda’s AIDS infection rates began to increase once again, due to an influx of condoms and Western “advice”, Green recalled. Western donors also came to Uganda and said behavioral change doesn’t work and that, “most infections nowadays are among married people.” Green said these claims are “misleading,” pointing out that “married people always have lower HIV infection rates than single or divorced people of the same age group.”

Green’s new book, “AIDS and Ideology,” to be completed in the next few months, will describe the industry in Africa that is “drawing billions of dollars a year promoting condoms, testing, drugs, and treatment of AIDS” and is clearly resistant to the idea that behavioral change is the solution.
Yet the two countries that have the highest infection rate of AIDS in the world, Botswana and Swaziland, have recently launched campaigns to promote fidelity and monogamy, the Harvard researcher said. These countries “have learned the hard way” about the failure of condoms in preventing AIDS, he said, noting that “Botswana has probably had more condom promotion” than any other county on a per capita basis. Green said he had no problem “having condoms as a backup to fidelity-based programs.”

According to Green, the Catholic Church should continue to “do what it is already doing,” avoid “arguing about the diameter of viruses” and cite scientific evidence in connection with scripture and moral theology.
Tomado de:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15445




Moscow Patriarchate supports position of Pope Benedict XVI rejecting condoms

Moscow, March 20, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church supports the position of Pope Benedict XVI rejecting condoms including in order to prevent HIV infection.
"It is incorrect to consider condoms as a panacea for AIDS," the deputy chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin told a round table in Moscow on Friday, commenting on the international row concerned with the pope's statement in Africa.

AIDS can be prevented not by contraceptives but by education and a righteous life, the priest said.

"If a person lives a sinful, aimless and senseless life, uses drugs and is lewd, some disease will kill him one day, neither a condom nor medicine will save him," Fr. Vsevolod added.

Currently some organizations speaking on AIDS are seeking to simultaneously preserve the ideal of sexual freedom and the fight against AIDS, he said. It is impossible to reconcile these things, he said.
Tomado de:
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5818




The Pope and Condoms and..."The Rest Of The Story"
March 22, 2009 - If you read the news, you would think that the Pope needs to be arrested for opposing condom use and contraception in Africa. This is interesting, since he is giving these talks in areas where the marjority of people are non Catholic Christians, Muslims, or follow traditional belief systems. And if you notice, the local religious leaders don't seem to be as upset about his message as the elites in Europe or the press.
Well, let me tell you the other side of the story, using an example from the BBC.

A couple months ago, the BBC was blasting the Bush HIV initiative for not providing funds to push "safe sex" education in high schools. To illustrate the problem, the BBC used the story of a young girl who was infertile from her "illegal abortion". But if you read her story, instead it provided the best story to show why the "safe sex" approach is not the answer.

First, she had had sex in high school. Unlike many niñas, she was not coerced into sex by a relative, employer, or neighbor. Nor did she have sex because it was the only way to survive. This girl admits it was her "boyfriend".

Well, in African tribal societies, it is not uncommon for courting couples to have sex, often with approval, as a way to prove the niñas' fertility, or to pressure her parents to agree to a marriage. Moreover, in many tribes, even if the couple doesn't marry, the man is responsible for the child's welfare, paying her family to help support it, or even taking it into his family to raise.

Going back to the BBC example, the niñas "boyfriend", however, didn't follow the traditional rules. He followed the new "rules": He abandoned her.

Lesson one: the modern Western ideas of "safe sex" without responsibility is devestating for women in third world countries, where the "social umbrella" is a strong family.

Of course, the point of the BBC story was to point out that if the girl had access to condoms she would not have gotten pregnant. But the girl in the BBC story admitted that she and her boyfriend used condoms. But she got pregnant anyway.

Lesson two: Condoms don't always work

Let's look at the real world. Women using no form of family planning have a pregnancy rate of 80 percent per year. Using a condom in a perfect world, her pregnancy rate would be 7%. But population studies, in the real world, show the pregnancy rate when condoms are used, is much higher: 30%.

Now, let’s look at Africa, where hot climate results in latex deteroration and breakage, and where poorly made/counterfeit condoms are common, (ABC Radio, Australia) the percentage is even higher.

These real world facts, don't faze those who are promoting modern sexual ideas in the third world. They have another "answer" : allow "legal" abortion on demand to solve the "problem" of all those "unwanted" children.

So let's go back to our BBC poster child. Her middle class parents arranged for her to have an abortion-- at a local private hospital. But the standard of care and hygiene was poor, so she ended up infected, and infertile.

Problem three: lack of good medical clinics in third world countries.

The girl ended up with complications because the good private hospital was not clean enough, or maybe because the one doing the abortion might have been incompetent. But if this is so for a middle class girl, what of a poor girl at a public hospital? Or a girl who can't afford even a public hospital? The result is illegal abortions using herbs or by semitrained health care workers.

This is, of course, going on anyway. But with the promotion of "safe sex", i.e. that promiscuity is normal, you end up with a lot more pregnancies, a lot more abandoned women, and a lot more women injured emotionally and physically because they felt they had no other choice than to abort their child.

You can't promote the promotion of "safe sex" or "use a condom" without promoting promiscuity and destroying the link between sex and marriage and children. Even with condoms cheap and easily available all over the place, the toll on individuals and society is devestating.

Don't believe me? Well look at the US: Last week an article noted that 40% of all pregnancies were outside of wedlock, and that is despite one million plus legal abortions a year. Fifty years ago, it was 5%, and there were a lot fewer abortions.

Similarly, the attack on the Pope is trying to destroy him for his prolife stance against abortion.

Right now, your tax money is going to NGO's who are busy promoting "legalized" abortion in a lot of third world countries. But of course legalizing abortion in public hospitals would force Christian and Muslim nurses and physicians to perform abortion in these public hospitals, even though abortion is against their religious reliefs.

In many rural areas, the only "public" hospitals and clinics are run by churches. So if the religion of population control is going to succeed, you have to first destroy the Catholic church. That is why the attacks on Pope Benedict have been so vehement and are continuing.

The Pope can not prevent non Catholic hospitals from promoting the "safe sex/population control" agenda. He doesn't have the power to do that. And, he cannot stop them from placing "pill ladies" in every neighborhood and village to push contraception, nor is he preventing rich NGO's from offering cheap condoms in kiosks in every open market.

But when the Pope insists on the dignity of marriage, and the holiness of sex inside a marital relationship, he is openly saying that the Emperor has no clothes.

And the Pope, by his strong stand, is inspiring others to follow their conscience to oppose the false dogmas being imposed by rich NGO's and the elites. His firm moral stance is strengthening Protestant pastors and Anglican bishops, nurses and doctors, local Muslims, and even those following their traditional tribal religions to reject the western ideas of sexuality that they know in their hearts is wrong. That is why the western elites hate the Pope so much –and to borrow a very well known phrase - that my friends, “is the rest of the story.”


Nancy Reyes is a retired doctor living in the Phillipines. She spent more than three years working with the poor in Africa in Africa. Nancy is the author of a number of blogs including Finest Kind Clinic and Fishmarket.
Tomado de:
http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_16558.php

[Josè Luis Jimènez Moreno]

Kenya, hasta hace poco, era el unico pais donde verdaderamente se habia registrado un descenso del sida, esto no ha sido difundido como deberia de ser por una simple y sencilla razon, la causa del decrecimiento de la enfermedad, fue resultado de la abstencion prmovida por una campania; pero esto no lo pueden reconocer los manipuladores.

Parece ser que Zimbawe es el segundo pais africano que siente este alivio


Saludos y bendiciones.

[Alfeo]

[gothic__medieval_knight]

Por lo que vengo leyendo este tipo Hugo me parece bastante liberal. Igual si Mariano le pregunta al sacerdote no puede decir nada porque la confesion es privada, no puede salir nada de la boca del sacerdote de lo que se dijo en confesion, sino quedaria excomulgado ipso facto. Bueno, espero que recapacite Hugo y comprenda que hay cosas con respecto al sexo en el matrimonio que tampoco se pueden hacer, no porque este casado todo es licito... Hay cosas que son contra natura. Nos vemos

[Mariano]

Mi idea no era hablar sobre dicha confesión, sino preguntarle su opinión sobre si es lícito o no el uso del preservativo dentro del matrimonio, como método para planificar la familia. Simplemente eso...
_________________

[gothic__medieval_knight]

Y pero seria obvio que te dirian que es ilicito. Si te dijeran que es licito... que clase de sacerdotes serian?

[LMAP21]

Es que toda esta conversación viene por un sacerdote que le dijo a Hugo que si era licito, entonces Mariano lo quería llamar para preguntarle así como quien no quiere la cosa.

QDTB
_________________

Mientras recorres la vida

[Mariano]

Gracias LMAP21, así es.

Por ello la gravedad del asunto...pero se negó a darme el teléfono de uno de ellos para yo hacerle la consulta, quizás no sea tan cierto...
_________________

[LMAP21]

Hugo no lo quiere buchonear, porque el sacerdote le dijo lo que el quería oír y así Hugo, sacerdote y ya sabes quien van a mantener esa comunidad condonada.

QDTB
_________________

Mientras recorres la vida

[RT]

Parece que queremos que el mundo sea perfecto primero, para luego actuar como Dios manda.

Va, que así el mundo no se mueve ni un ápice, y los cristianos quedamos más deslucidos que bandera vieja.

[Miles_Dei]

Si no fuera un sacrilegio uno estaría tentado de ir confesionario por confesionario apuntando las respuestas a un dilema moral sobre el uso del preservativo.

Se vería hasta donde se ha corrompido a la Iglesia en sus sacerdotes.

Un saludo en la paz de Cristo.
_________________


Se trabó un gran combate en el cielo: Miguel y sus ángeles luchaban contra el dragón. (Apoc 12, 7)

[Alfeo]

[Miles_Dei]

[Eagleheart]

Y no se puede decir más claro.

Pero no faltará el que no quiera escuchar. Dios tenga piedad.

Salu2. Paz y Bien.
_________________

No ceder ni un milímetro. Dies irae dies illa Solvet sæclum in favilla Teste David cum Sibylla - Quantus tremor est futurus Quando judex est venturus Cuncta stricte discussurus